June 1, 2017 – NTRA National Media Teleconference
Belmont Stakes Preview
Guest (probable entrant)
- Trainer Mark Casse (Classic Empire)
- Trainer Kiaran McLaughlin (True Timber)
- Jockey Victor Espinoza (Gormley)
Click below to listen to the Teleconference and scroll down to view the transcript (available Thursday afternoon).
Jim Mulvihill:
Thanks to everybody joining us for our annual Belmont stakes teleconference. We don’t have a triple crown on the line this year and we don’t have the Derby the winner or the Preakness winner participating. What we do have though is an extraordinary afternoon that a lot of folks would say has now established itself as annually the second best day of racing and betting in the US behind only Breeders’ Cup Saturday.
The Belmont Day card features six Grade 1 races, nine graded stakes overall and when you consider also the high-quality Thursday and Friday programmes, the Belmont Stakes racing festival offers an important stakes race in every single Eclipse Awards division and then some.
The focus of this call though obviously is strictly on the three-year-olds and the 149th Belmont Stakes. Later on, we’re going to talk Kiaran McLaughlin who’s a past Belmont Winner. He’ll saddle True Timber. And jockey Victor Espinoza, newly inducted into the hall of fame, who didn’t have a Belmont mount last year. And so this will be his first Belmont ride since winning the Triple Crown on American Pharaoh two years ago. He’ll be on Gormley of course.
But first, we’re happy to welcome back, Mark Casse, trainer of last year’s champion two-year-old Classic Empire who was fourth in the Derby with a challenging trip and then a very game second in the Preakness. And despite not winning either of the first two classics this year, you all, the media were impressed enough to make him the nation’s top three-year-old in our most recent NTRA poll and he would be expected to be favoured in the Belmont. Mark Casse, thanks for joining us.
Mark Casse:
Thanks for having me, Jim.
Jim Mulvihill:
Yes, of course. We’re always happy to have you on. Before we get to talking about the Belmont, would you mind just recapping the Preakness and giving us your impressions of Classic Empire’s effort in there?
Mark Casse:
Whether I cried or not? I was really proud of him, you know, going in, all I said was that I wanted after the Kentucky Derby to just have a fair shot and, you know, he had a fair shot. I think he ran his rear end off and we just – we just beat unfortunately. But I was proud of him and had no regrets.
Jim Mulvihill:
And speaking of having no regrets, I mean, he – you know, thinking about the way the race unfolded, do you think he had to press the pace? I mean, you wouldn’t want to leave the derby winner on an easy lead. Were you happy with the way the race unfolded for your horse?
Mark Casse:
I did and it wasn’t that the pace was extraordinarily hot. So I wouldn’t sit there and say that the reason we got beat was because we ran too fast early. I just think – I don’t know why but obviously, we all know Always Dreaming wasn’t the Always Dreaming we’d seen all spring. And if anything, it probably caught us by surprise and caught Julien a little bit by surprise, caught the horse by surprise that he retreated as quickly as he did.
It’s my feeling is that if Always Dreaming had ran another 16th of a mile and kept Classic Empire focused, I think we would have had a much better shot at winning the Preakness. So, but as it turned out, Always Dreaming kind of gave it up before the quarter pole and he we were out on the lead and nothing to focus on.
Jim Mulvihill:
Interesting, interesting. Well, I think it is a credit to his effort that he’s number one in our three-year-old poll right now when you take into consideration the Derby and the Arkansas Derby and everyone else’s entire campaign is to this point. Do you train the best three-year-old in the country in your opinion?
Mark Casse:
I think I do. I think the more and more, now seeing what happened with the Kentucky Derby, you know, our horse had just an unbelievably bad luck – bad luck in there. And you know what, he ran hard in the Arkansas Derby, he ran hard in the Kentucky Derby, probably ran harder in the Kentucky Derby than any of the races. And then he showed up again for the Preakness. And that’s – it’s one of the reasons we’re going to show up for the Belmont too. We still feel that we have the best three-year-old and we just – we want to prove it. We’ve been so close and we just feel we’ve been a little unlucky. So hopefully third time’s the charm.
Ron Flatter:
Hi, Mark. Looking back over Classic Empire’s first nine races, as you look to the Belmont, is there any of those that you’d look at and say, that would be the pace setup that I would like for him in this race?
Mark Casse:
You know, that is a good question, Ron, because I think, you know, everybody looks at – they look at the Kentucky Derby and they say will come around and they say, well, he’ll be better in the Belmont or they were finishing in the Preakness, they’re going to like the Belmont. It doesn’t work that way. Belmont is a different ran race because of the pace.
So, I think one thing and I’m hoping, if you’ll – if you’ll notice when our horse won the Breeders’ Cup and in the Preakness, Julien got pretty aggressive with him early to get him on to the bit and getting him up there. You can see him hustling pretty hard. In the Belmont, I’m not so sure we want to do that. I’m hoping that he’ll just kind of fall out of there. There – I don’t who the pace is going to be and the pace is very hard to determine because as I said, the mile and a half is just an entirely difference race.
But I’d like to see him, you know, probably a little bit like let’s go for the Arkansas Derby where he was back a little bit mid pack and came with his run. So, I guess that if I look back on those races, probably the Arkansas Derby.
Ron Flatter:
And as you look back on his races too, we could certainly argue that he was done in by bad luck in the Derby and then the circumstances you described in the Preakness, is there a race you’d say over his career, you’d say that is Classic Empire? That’s the one you’d put on the highlight reel as his best period.
Mark Casse:
Personally, two races I would say. His Bashford Manor, he beat a horse called Recruiting Ready who won a nice race at Pimlico. On Preakness week, he’s an extremely fast horse. It was Classic Empire’s second start of his career and he kind of ducked in as horses often do going across the shoot at Churchill and here’s a two-year-old, looks like he has no chance of winning. He’s probably 10, 12 lengths out of it after an eighth of a mile and he wins and then goes 109 and change. This is a two-year-old in end of June. I thought that was – when I saw that, I knew that he was exceptional.
And I’m not so sure the Kentucky Derby. If you go and you look at – there are a lot of good horses that got nothing in the Kentucky Derby. Irish War Cry looked like he was sitting in just the perfect position and he backed up. I don’t care what anybody says, there was a definite – an inside bias on Derby Day especially for the Kentucky Derby.
Now, some people are missing out and Mike Watchmaker is one of them is that the track changed during the day. As it started drying out, there was not as big an inside bias but between the last dirt race in the Kentucky Derby, we had a ton of rain. And when it rains, all the water goes down to the inside, packs down the inside. I’ve been training horses for 37 years at Churchill Downs. I know a little something about Churchill Downs. So, I think Kentucky Derby was a great race. So, I’d say the Bashford Manor and the Kentucky Derby.
Ron Flatter:
Very good.
Mark Casse:
Long answer for a short question, sorry.
Beth Harris:
Hi, Mark. A two-part question for you. Number one from a competitive standpoint, are you disappointed not to be having the Derby and the Preakness winners in the Belmont and what are your thoughts on horses that don’t run in all three legs?
Mark Casse:
Well, you know what, it’s a toughie. Of course, I think I would love the horses all to run in all three races because then it’s – I think it truly proves who the best horse is and who’s not only the best but the toughest. And I mean, I’m not disappointed at all Always Dreaming’s not coming because I think the Preakness showed that he’s not at the top of his game right now. So, I think those connections are wise.
Disappointed that the Preakness winner is not going to be there. He’s fine; why not? We took him on after six weeks. He had six weeks’ rest. We had – we ran two races in five weeks. We ran the Arkansas Derby and then came back three weeks later and ran in the Kentucky Derby and then went – and two weeks later ran in the Preakness. So yes, I really don’t know why he’s – he’s not there but they own him. Chad trains him so they get that privilege. But I’m disappointed he’s not there.
Tom Pedulla:
Yeah, Mark. You know, you sort of just noted your horse has had a difficult schedule. Do you see it taking any toll on him?
Mark Casse:
I’ll tell you this, Tom, I thought going into the Arkansas Derby that he looked good. I thought going into the Kentucky Derby that he looked better in the Kentucky Derby, trained better into the Kentucky Derby than he did into the Arkansas Derby and he looked better. I thought when we were at Pimlico that he looked better at Pimlico for the Preakness than he did for the Kentucky Derby.
So, I think our horse is handling it well. I mean, he trained great this morning and he just seems to be thriving. I’ve trained a lot of good horses in my career. I don’t know how many great ones were but you know, like Tepin. Tepin thrived on running and I think Classic Empire thrives on running.
And so, to answer your question, if we get beat in the Belmont, we’re not going to go and say, well, we were tired. We know what – we know our horse. We know what we’re up against and we’re ready for the challenge. If we get beat, I’m sure not going to blame the schedule. He’s telling us he wants to run so we’re going to let him run.
Tom Pedulla:
Okay. And this is the second part to that if you don’t mind, just the mile and a half, is that appealing or daunting to you?
Mark Casse:
It’s unknown. You don’t really like unknown. I can’t sit here and tell you that oh, I’m going to – he’s going to love the mile and a half. I just don’t know. I don’t know. I mean if you can run a mile and a quarter, and remember, he ran a mile and a quarter and was still running at the end after running 70 feet farther than the Derby winner and 90 feet farther than the second placer. He was still finishing on a tough race track going a mile and a quarter. So, I’d find it hard to believe that he couldn’t go a mile and a half.
Danny Brewer:
What have you learned – no, you’re not. Believe me, you’re not. Hey, what have you been – what have you learned from Classic Empire? Has he taught you anything? I know you’ve taught him some things. Has he taught you anything?
Mark Casse:
He’s taught me to be patient.
Danny Brewer:
There you go.
Mark Casse:
I mean, I think I’m already patient but he probably pushes it a little bit. And the one thing that I would say that he’s taught me, maybe he didn’t teach it to me but he reconfirmed it and that is great horses can overcome a lot of things. And you know, a lot of been – things have been thrown at him and us and the – I really believe the only thing that’s beat us is bad luck. I think our horses come to the race ready to play and hard every time. And there’s no question bad luck killed him in the Kentucky Derby.
The Preakness, we, you know, hey, we should have won the Preakness but a better horse beat us that day. I do believe circumstances played a part of it but I can’t really give us an excuse. But we – we ran hard, we played hard and so I guess that’s probably what it’s taught me. Great horses can overcome things that good horses can’t.
Danny Brewer:
And is that why he’s running in the Belmont Stakes because he is a great horse and he deserves the opportunity to showcase that in the Belmont Stakes? Is that one of the main reasons he’s running there?
Mark Casse:
Yeah, I think, yes. I think we feel like we should have one the, you know, we should have won the Kentucky Derby or I shouldn’t say that. I mean, Always Dreaming ran his rear end of, deserves to win and I’m not sure if everything went perfect if we could have beat Always Dreaming on that day. And so – but we would have been a lot closer.
Danny Brewer:
But you feel like you you’re – you feel like you’ve got a horse that’s good enough. You feel like he’s certainly good enough to win it.
Mark Casse:
Yeah, I think he deserves to win one of them. And you know what, as long as – as long as he’s – and you’ll look at it. We probably get criticised for it sometimes. Some people like it. One thing about us, we’re not afraid to run. Now, maybe we don’t have a 25% win percentage and maybe – but we’re not in a, you know, we’re not afraid to run and it’s a sport. I mean, I think too many horses sit in the barn when they should be running. If we can run, we’re going to run and he’s ready to run so we’re going to do it.
Danny Brewer:
This is a Noble Bird question, is he Foster – you think Noble Bird, will he – will he fly into Foster, you think?
Mark Casse:
No. No, he – he’s actually at home in Ocala and is just going to aim for a fall campaign and he just wasn’t himself. And we’re just – he’s been going long and hard so we gave him a break.
Tom Jicha:
In the Preakness, you seemed to prioritise not letting Always Dreaming get away and steal the race. It doesn’t appear there’s any kind of real tough speed or classic speed in this race. There are some that will go early. Is there any horse that you – you’re going to tell Julien to keep an eye on or is it going to be strictly ride your race?
Mark Casse:
I think we have the best horse and we’re just going to – we’re going to let Julien do what he does best. And I mean, honestly, I’d love to see a little bit of speed so some – I think our horse likes a target. Our horse is a fighter and he likes a target. So ideally, he’ll shut off, he’ll relax and turn in for home, he’ll have a couple targets to run at. And that’s all we’re going to – we’re going to try to do. If nobody wants to lead, I guess we’ll be on it – not really what I want to do but we could, I guess.
Tom Jicha:
Yes, and I’ve seen a certain place – I don’t even know if it came from you that one theory was that he really didn’t see Cloud Computing coming in the final stride. Do you buy into that at all?
Mark Casse:
No, not really. I think he knew he was there. I think Cloud Computing had some momentum on him. You’ll see, our horse fights back and ties. And then even as they went on out after the race, he took kind of –– it wasn’t like he was some horse that fell flat on his face as soon as they went by the wire. He took off again and was, you know, galloping out and I know a lot of people, there’s some people who like to gallop out, some people don’t. They say, well, the race is over. So, what does it matter.
I still like to see a horse that at the end isn’t totally spent and I don’t believe for a second that Classic Empire was totally spent. I think he saw the horse coming. He fought back. The horse had a little momentum on him and beat him. He ran a great race, you know? He deserved to win just as much as we did.
Jon White:
Mark, the job that you and Norman did with Classic Empire to get him ready for the Arkansas Derby and win the Arkansas Derby was really just outstanding. And I was wondering if perhaps you could discuss for a moment the contribution that your son and assistant, Mark, has had with the success of Classic Empire.
Mark Casse:
Well, I mean, Norman is usually where I’m not and as you say, this horse was very trying, you know? All early spring, when you have the Breeders’ Cup winner champion and he’s not doing what you want him to do, it gets difficult. And it was – it was just truly a – a true team effort, I mean, from everybody down at Palm Meadows, I mean, what a great job when we brought him to Ocala to our training centre there.
And I mean, a lot of people – I’ll tell everybody something right now that not everybody knows and just Julien took some heat after the Preakness which I didn’t think was deserved. But Julien had as much to do with this horse making it to the races as anybody. Here’s a guy that would get up – him and Norman would get up at three o’clock in the morning and drive from South Florida to Ocala, you know, to get on the horse and to working. So, it was an effort by many and Norman was a big part of it.
Debbie Arrington:
Hi, Mark, and thank you again for coming on here. And you’ve really – you and your horse have entered a lot this spring. You know, so the Triple Crown can be absolutely, you know, devastating on horses and people, you know, because it is such a gruelling series. And other horses, they seem to thrive on all that work and competition. How is Classic Empire doing and does he fit into that second category?
Mark Casse:
Oh yeah, most definitely. If not, then we wouldn’t be here. As I had said earlier in the call, you know, he – he is thriving. We had our veterinarian who is a back specialist who after every race goes and checks on him. She flies in because he had hurt his back – he hurt his back this spring when he hurt his foot.
Debbie Arrington:
Wow.
Mark Casse:
And then so we have a – we have a lady that flies in and looks at him and she went and looked at him on Tuesday and told me that he never looked better. So, and I thought when we were at Pimlico that it was – he looked the best I have ever seen him. So, he’s actually getting bigger and stronger with the racing than with other horses, some of the other horses do.
Debbie Arrington:
Very good. And, you know, we’ve seen these horses, you know, a lot this spring and, you know, they’ve – we’ve had different results in the first two classics and we definitely will have a different result in the Belmont. How do you rate this group and do you think overall that they’ll mature into some very good handicap horses as we go on?
Mark Casse:
I mean, we can only speculate on what’s going to happen there. I find the best – you really don’t know how good a bunch is until you look back a year later or so. So, I mean, of course I would sit there and love to say well, you know, this is an outstanding crop and they’re going to do great things. But being a realist, you know, being realistic and trying to predict the future, I don’t know. You just never know. I think it’s a good crop. I don’t think we’ll know – ask me this question a year from now and I’ll tell you.
Debbie Arrington:
Okay.
Mark Casse:
Okay.
Debbie Arrington:
Very good. And it’s – what indication does Classic Empire give to you that he’s kind of – like a mile and a half?
Mark Casse:
I just think – one thing about him, he broke his maiden going four and a half and as I said earlier, he was running at the end of the mile and a quarter. So, I think the indication is that he is just a great horse, a true athlete and he can do a little bit of anything.
Jay Privman:
I was wondering who else you might be bringing to New York for all the other six races that weekend.
Mark Casse:
You got – do you have a lot of time? We have – we’re bringing a bunch. We’re bringing World Approval, Salty…
Jay Privman:
Hang on, hang on, wait. World Approval would be for the Manhattan, right?
Mark Casse:
Yes.
Jay Privman:
Salty would be for the…
Mark Casse:
We’re bringing Salty for the Acorn.
Jay Privman:
Right.
Mark Casse:
Acorn. We’re bringing Awesome Slew for the Met Mile. We’re bringing Corporate Queen and Dream Dancing for the Wonder Again. We’re bringing Holding Gold for the Jaipur. Trying to think. We went over Holding Gold. I don’t think that there’s any others. I don’t remember right this second to be honest.
Jay Privman:
So that’s seven in total including Classic Empire.
Mark Casse:
Yeah, there’s a shot we could run Wicked Macho in the Easy Goer. We’re thinking about that. Let me just see here if I’m missing anybody. Oh, yeah, we’re bringing Pretty City Dancer for the – whatever the filly…
Jay Privman:
Jersey Girl?
Mark Casse:
Well, the Jersey Girl, yes.
Jay Privman:
Okay.
Mark Casse:
And we had contemplated bringing in the two-year-old filly but we’re not going to do that. I think that’s got it.
Jim Mulvihill:
All right, Mark, we’ve covered a lot of ground so I’m going to let you go. Really appreciate the time and best of luck in New York next week.
Mark Casse:
Well, thanks, Jim and hopefully the next we talk, I can say we have a Belmont winner.
Jim Mulvihill:
We hope so.
Mark Casse:
Okay. Thank you Jim.
Jim Mulvihill:
All right, thanks, Mark.
Mark Casse:
Thank you everybody.
Jim Mulvihill:
Bye. All right, Mark Casse with all kinds of good information covering everything especially awesome stuff on – on the other Triple Crown horses and their decisions to bypass this Belmont Stakes. In any case, now let’s check in with some of the other Belmont contenders. Hopefully everyone’s familiar with Kiaran McLaughlin by now but you might know much about his likely Belmont entrant and that’s True Timber. He’s by Mineshaft out of an unraced Tiznow mare. He hasn’t won this year but he was competitive in all of Aqueduct’s Derby preps. That includes a fourth in the Wood Memorial and a third place finisher in that race was Cloud Computing.
Last time out, True Timber was third in the Sir Barton on Preakness Day and also mentioning of course Kiaran won the Belmont with Jazil in 2006 which was another year where neither the Derby or Preakness winner showed up for the Belmont. So now let’s see if we got Kiaran on the line. Kiaran, it’s Jim Mulvihill in Lexington. How are you doing?
Kiaran McLaughlin:
Great, Jim. I’m here.
Jim Mulvihill:
Excellent. So, glad to have you on, always appreciate your time. True Timber is a pretty intriguing candidate for the Belmont. Just tell us why you decided to give him a chance in here.
Kiaran McLaughlin:
Well, you know, he’s run every month. He might be as fit as anybody. He’s run every month since he first started. And we thought that he might have a chance going a mile and a half. He seems to always stay running late in a race. He doesn’t just quit. So, you know, it seemed to be pretty wide open if Mark Casse didn’t decide to run. So, Classic Empire is going to be very tough. But we’re in and we want to give him a try and he’s doing very well.
Jim Mulvihill:
Well, and Classic Empire aside, how much did the rest of the field play into your decision? I mean, would it have – would it have mattered at all if the Derby or Preakness winner showed up or were you in regardless?
Kiaran McLaughlin:
No, yes, it would have mattered probably. But he’s just doing very well and we just thought it was worth a shot, to take a shot at it. And we’re here at home. It’s easy. We don’t have to travel so he’s training well and we’re just going to give it a try.
Jim Mulvihill:
And Calumet Farm obviously has been keen to win another classic and kind of highlight how far they’ve come the past few years. Did not come into play at all or was this entirely in your hands?
Kiaran McLaughlin:
Yes, it did come into play and I think that, you know, Mr Kelley has done a great job getting Calumet back out there and talking about these races and running in these races. And he’s putting them back on the map whether or not we did it in the winner’s circle or not, you know? Calumet is participating in a lot of key races and it’s great and it will get lucky.
Ron Flatter: Hi, Kiaran. Do you have a jockey yet for True Timber.
Kiaran McLaughlin:
Yeah, Paco Lopez. He was fourth on him in the Wood Memorial so he will ride him.
Ron Flatter:
And what sort of – I mean, the big mystery I suppose in this race isn’t just whether the horses can get the distance but who’s going to set the pace. What kind of a spot do you want to see True Timber in during the course of this race?
Kiaran McLaughlin:
We’ll see how it breaks but he would be forwardly placed. He is most of the time so if he breaks, well, he would probably be forwardly placed and we’ll let Paco decide that.
Ron Flatter:
And one of the other things that happens in the Belmont, it seems that horses who know the track do pretty well. And while he hasn’t raced on it, he certainly trained a lot on it. How much of an advantage do you see that for him?
Kiaran McLaughlin:
Well, I think the big question is who can get the mile and a half and nobody really knows so you never know. I don’t know if it’s a big advantage to be here but it is nice that we don’t have to ship. So, training over the track everyday has to help.
Debbie Arrington:
Hi, Kiaran, and thank you very much for coming on. It seems like Calumet had horses all over the country with several different trainers this spring. How many horses do you have from Calumet and could you tell us a little bit more about how active they are in selecting their horses and which races they’re going in?
Kiaran McLaughlin:
Yes. I have four two-year-olds and True Timber is the only older horse I have, a three-year-old. And