NTRA Communications Road To the Triple Crown Previewing the 141st Kentucky Derby
Guests:
Trainer Mike de Kock
Trainer Kiaran McLaughlin
Owner Ken Ramsey
Jim Mulvihill: Welcome everyone to our final Road to the Triple Crown teleconference in advance of the 141st Kentucky Derby on May 2, just 11 eleven days from now. The final preparations have all been run, the field is more or less set, and clearly we’re blessed with what appears to be one of the most talented and consistent crops in recent Derby memory. As of today, would expect the Arkansas Derby winner, American Pharoah, to be the favorite, although Mike Battaglia, the Churchill Downs odds-maker, has said he wants to see which way the buzz is blowing before finally setting that morning line, which we’ll hear on Wednesday—next Wednesday, that is. Three-time Derby winner Bob Baffert, he’s got the probable top two choices in American Pharoah and the undefeated Santa Anita Derby winner, Dortmund, and another top Derby winning conditioner, Todd Pletcher, trained the likely third choice—that’s the Blue Grass Stakes winner Carpe Diem. We’ve had both Baffert and Pletcher on our calls the last few weeks, so you can go to ntra.com in the News section and look at the transcripts, if you need any quotes from those two regarding their Derby horses.
Now, the Derby is obviously more than those three and in addition to having those ultra-talented favorites, this field also has unusual depth. Today, we’re going to talk to the connections of three horses that will be right behind those favorites in the wagering and together they complete the top six spots on the Road to the Kentucky Derby points’ leaderboard. Those are: International Star, he swept the three-race series at fairgrounds, including the Louisiana Derby, and he’s the leading points getter; Frosted, the Wood Memorial winner; and Mubtaahij, the UAE Derby winner seeking to become the first Derby winner to have prepped in Dubai.
Now, before we get to the guests, I want to give a quick reminder about the broadcasting schedules. NBC Sports Group has 14 hours of Derby coverage lined up next week. That starts with the post-draw on Wednesday at 5:30 Eastern on the NBC Sports Network. The NBC Sports Network also has The Oaks, the Derby Undercard and Derby post-race coverage, and of course the Kentucky Derby broadcast will be on the flagship network NBC on Saturday, May 2, from 4:00 to 7:00 pm Eastern. Meanwhile, the Horse Racing Radio Network has 20 hours of Derby coverage next week. That goes from the Trainers’ Dinner on Tuesday all the way through the race, and as always, you can find that on Sirius 220 or XM 206, or online at horseracingradio.net, and also on those satellite radio stations you can hear Steve Byk, whose At the Races is already broadcasting live from Churchill Downs every morning.
Now, let’s get on to the main event, the guests today. Later in this call, we’re going to be joined by Kiaran McLaughlin, the trainer of Frosted, and Ken Ramsey, the owner of International Star, but first we’re thrilled to welcome in Mike de Kock, the trainer of the easy UAE Derby winner, Mubtaahij, and I’ll give you some quick background on Mike.
He’s one of the most successful horsemen in the world. He’s a 49-year-old South African who’s been training on his own for 24 years. He first learned to get a horse fit in the army, as a member of the South African Defense Force’s Equestrian Unit. He worked as an Assistant to a few trainers after his stint in the army, and when his boss, Ricky Howard-Ginsberg, passed away unexpectedly, Mike took over the training of a 50-head stable. Since then, he’s trained the winners of nearly a hundred Group 1 events, including several in recent years for Sheik Mohammed of Dubai. Mike’s won races on four continents, including North America, and you might remember even brought one of his top horses ever, the South African Triple Crown winner, Horse Chestnut, to win at Gulfstream in 2000. Now, it’s been 44 years since a Derby winner prepped outside of the United States, going back to 1971, in Canonero II, but if anybody can do it in this day and age, it’s this man.
Mike de Kock, you’re on with Jim Mulvihill in Kentucky. Thanks for being here.
Mike de Kock: Thanks very much, Jim. Thank you.
Jim Mulvihill: It’s our pleasure. We really appreciate you taking the time, I know you’re busy around now, but do you mind if I ask where you’re talking to us from today?
Mike de Kock: We’ve got an auction starting tomorrow, so we’ve been viewing horses all day in South Africa, sort of south of Johannesburg.
Jim Mulvihill: Terrific, terrific, all right. Well, we’ve got a lot to talk about, but first I’d like to start with the most immediate news about Mubtaahij, and that would be the work this morning at Arlington Park. A few hours ago, he breezed three furlongs officially, and I’m curious what kind of report you might have heard back from your Assistant there.
Mike de Kock: Yes, well, he actually breezed—he kicked off from the mile and breezed the last four furlongs. Yes, very happy, just very easy work. You know, I mean, he travelled probably just under a week ago, or just less than a week ago, and he’s taken it all very well, and, yes, at this stage we’ve been pretty chuffed at the way he’s come out of things.
Jim Mulvihill: You said he’s taking it all well. Just tell us what gave you the confidence even going into the UAE Derby—when you first started talking about the Kentucky Derby as a target, what’s given you the confidence that he can deal with all this travel and quarantine and new surroundings and such?
Mike de Kock: I think a lot to do with the horse’s temperament. Sort of many months ago, I’m not sure when the entry was exactly, I think in January, but at that time Pat Cummings and he said, “Have you ever thought of the Kentucky Derby?” and I just said, “To be honest, no,” and he said, “Well, if your horse comes through the Triple Crown races in Dubai, you ought to consider it, so why don’t you enter it?” So, we said, “Well, we’ll enter.” The way he came through all the races, plus his whole demeanor and his temperament, and the fact that he’s an easy horse to travel, you know, we thought why not, let’s give it a dash, and then when he goes and wins really well in the UAE Derby, you know, I suppose you get a little bit of confidence and you think “What the hell, let’s have a crack at it.” But, to be honest, I probably picked the worst year when it comes to the opposition, but, you know, at the end of the day you never know. It’s a sporting event, it’s a horse race. Who knows? There’s no guarantees, let’s face it.
Jim Mulvihill: Well, in the Kentucky Derby especially, I’d say you never know. Now, for you, shipping a horse internationally for Group 1 races isn’t unusual, but here in the States, and especially regarding the Derby, you’ll probably understand there are some skeptics, especially when it comes to this race and shipping in, so I’m wondering if you can just share with us a few examples of the furthest distance that you’ve travelled a horse for a Group 1 win, and maybe what you’ve learned along the way about how to acclimate a thoroughbred travelling overseas for a big race like this?
Mike de Kock: You know, locally, in South Africa, we train in Johannesburg and we’d race in Cape Town, which would be roughly an 18- to 20-hours van ride to Cape Town from Johannesburg, to race, and it’s something we do very regularly. In the season in Cape Town, which is basically December, January and February, I’d do that more than once and I’ll do it multiple times and, you know, the horses win Group 1s regularly, and that’s 18 to 20 hours on a van. I’ve shipped to Hong Kong and won multiple Group 1s there, but that would be less, that would be maybe 12 hours door to door. It’s not something that’s actually foreign to us and it’s not something that puts us off.
I think the key to transporting horses is (a) the horse has got an appetite, he’s got to be able to eat, or she, and got to take in fluids, and if you can get the balance of the two right, you’ve got half the battle won. It’s not something that would put us off, and 18- or a 20- or a 24-hour journey even to a destination to race, I must be honest with you. I think it’s just because we’re probably used to it. We’re used to it in our own country. I would put a horse on a van on a Friday afternoon, travel eight hours the next day and race, and very successfully, you know. I suppose it’s just to be comfortable with that sort of scenario.
Jim Mulvihill: How has this horse taken all this? I mean, you’ve said he’s done well, but tell us about some of the challenges, unexpected ones that you’ve had along the way in getting to Chicago, and his travel companions and such, and how it’s all gone.
Mike de Kock: Yes, it’s close to 24 hours door to door. When he got to Chicago, my Assistant there, Trevor, he just felt that he looked a little tucked up, so, I mean, right there and then I took the decision not to travel him down to the yard we were going to near Louisville, which was going to be two or three days later, and I just thought, you know, let’s just stay in Chicago. We’re very comfortable in the track there, we’ve had horses there before, we’ve raced fairly successful at Arlington, and, you know, we sort of switched plan mid-stride, and I think we’ve done the right thing, because within two or three days the horse was really sort of just bursting out of his skin. He never stopped eating, he never stopped drinking, and whatever weight he lost visibly, he put on very quickly, you know.
Jim Mulvihill: So, that’s what you mean when you say he was “a little tucked up,” was just that he had lost a little weight on the flight?
Mike de Kock: Yes, according to my Assistant, he just looked that way, just didn’t look like he did when he left home, and so we just went to Plan B and said, “You know what? Why should we put him on a van, two or three days later, and another eight hours shipping? Let’s just stay where we are, let’s just recover, and let him get used to his surroundings,” and I think it was the right call. I think, as horsemen, we have to be flexible when it comes to these kinds of things. I think the horses talk to us.
Jim Mulvihill: Very good. Well, Mike, I’m going to check with the media and see what questions they have for you. There’s a lot more to ask Mike de Kock about, not just the shipping, but he’s going to be running without race day medication, which is unusual in the Derby, and I imagine we might have some questions about the pedigree, as well; it’s a very interesting one. So, Michelle, do you want to check with the media and see what they’ve got for Mike.
Louisa Barton: I wanted to ask you—you already mentioned a little bit about your travelling and things. So, with Mubtaahij, how much of the new diet, having to change that, and not having his usual groom, just those kind of changes, how much would they possibly affect him for this race, with the travelling and the changes, and what kind of diet changes have you had to make?
Mike de Kock: That’s actually a great question, because I think that is probably the most significant thing with all the travelling. It’s obviously something that is out of our control and it’s an FDA regulation, and the feed that he was on is not registered in the US, so I do understand where they’re coming from, but no trainer ever, or athlete, would like to change the regular diet going into any sort of event. The diet that I’ve changed to is obviously something I do know a little bit about and have used before, but, effectively, it’s not what he’s used to regularly. How much bearing that would have on his performance, quite frankly, I’m not that sure, but just from a trainer’s psyche, it’s not ideal, let’s put it that way.
Louisa Barton: He relaxes early it seems, which is a very positive quality, especially in the Derby. It seems like it’s not the stone-cold sober that wins, but, you know, the tactical horse that can maneuver and really relax in the beginning and get in a good position. Do you think that could be a really big thing in his favor in the Derby this year?
Mike de Kock: I think so. Given the little I know about the horses that are in American racing, the emphasis does seem to be on speed. He’s a horse that can relax fairly well at quite a hot speed or hot pace, and he does kick—he will be doing his best towards the end. Whether we can, you know, then, overall, the horses that have got away with all that speed is, you know—we’re not sure that’ll happen, but certainly I’m not there to try and match the American horses for speed, because I don’t think we have that ability, but I do know we have the ability to get to 10 furlongs and I do know we have the ability to come on strong the last three or four furlongs.
Ron Flatter: Mike, good morning or afternoon, whatever the case may be. What’s your feeling on why you’ve gone Lasix with a couple of your horses that you’ve brought over to North America, with Oracle West and River Jetez, but you’ve gone without Lasix for the others?
Mike de Kock: I think it’s purely, as I’ve stated before, about bleeding. As I understand things, Lasix is there to assist horses that are known bleeders or have bled in their time. This horse has never bled, not even a suspicion of any bleeding, and I’m not sure what he’ll do having been given Lasix. He’s never had it in training, whereas those horses, obviously, I knew that they’d bled before in training and, therefore, they would have been administered Lasix in training, and I would have had an idea that they would have performed to a reasonable level having been given Lasix. So, it’s purely just a belief, you know, the fact that he doesn’t bleed, he hasn’t bled, touch wood, until now, and I’m not prepared to gamble on his performance being altered having been given Lasix, because I’m not sure what he’ll do, to be quite honest.
Ron Flatter: He had what appeared to be the perfect trip at the UAE Derby. Does he need the same thing in the Kentucky Derby?
Mike de Kock: I’d say he’d need something similar, sure. I think he’d need the speed to be on. He’s a horse that has courage enough to deal with the kick-back. I’m not sure that I’d like to be right down at the rail, I may be wrong, because you probably would get a lot of the kick-back there. We may just want to try and give ourselves the easiest passage, sitting a little off the gallop, maybe a little wide, out of all the trouble, and, you know, riding for (inaudible), as I would put it.
Ron Flatter: Last one for me. In terms of going to a dirt race, this is only the second time you’ve come to a dirt race in North America, and the first one was Horse Chestnut.
Mike de Kock: Yes.
Ron Flatter: Can you take anything from that experience 15 years ago, or is this a whole new animal for you?
Mike de Kock: I think I can take a lot from what we saw in Dubai. The dirt track there, there was a fair amount of kick-back, and I think if he could deal with that, he could probably deal with most dirt tracks. Horse Chestnut was probably a different beast. I’m not sure that he’s a Horse Chestnut, but he’s got a lot of courage, this horse, and he can deal with adversity. He’s got a very good temperament.
Danny Brewer: Listen, what about the passing gear on this horse, because in the UAE Derby he kind of liked drew up alongside and then he was gone. Is that something that you’ve seen before and you knew he had, or had you worked on that, or just talk about that for a moment?
Mike de Kock: I’m not so sure that in the UAE Derby they went a little too quick early on, and that’s why his acceleration possibly is a little flattering. The two Japanese horses really took each other on upfront and he was able to relax behind them and really get the perfect trip, let’s face it. He does have acceleration, though, and he does get to 10 furlongs, and he does run hard to the line. So, he does have acceleration, yes. It may have been a little flattering in the UAE Derby given that the speed was a little crazy upfront. There were four taking each other on at really marking in a suicidal pace.
Danny Brewer: Whenever you think about that and you think about the Kentucky Derby and the fractions that can be set in a race like that early, does that mean he’s made to order for something like this?
Mike de Kock: I don’t know if he’s made to order, but I do know that he has the ability to sit behind a lot of speed and accelerate off that, and that’s probably in his favor. However, I think in America we’re taking on a different animal in that they can probably relay the speed down and keep it going. So, you know, we have to accelerate, we can’t wait for them to come back at us.
Danny Brewer: Last question for me. Talk about Kentucky Derby fever South African style.
Mike de Kock: You know, thy were quite flattering in saying I’m 49 years old. I’m actually a little bit older than that. So, since a young man one looks at the Kentucky Derby in awe. It doesn’t matter what country you come from. There’s great race meetings around the world and everyone likes to think that their meeting is the greatest, but I think the Kentucky Derby meeting has proven it’s got to be—if it isn’t the greatest, well, tell me which one is, and to be part of that is really special for us, and to go there with a horse that’s not a 100 to 1 shot; it would be fantastic if he ran well—it is mind-boggling. I think it’ll comprehend and it’ll settle in when one’s there and one sees the real scenario and the real spirit around it all. I don’t think I’ll be disappointed and I hope to gain everything out of it that I expect. It’s something that has been an ambition and a dream from a very young man in this industry, and I’m really honored and privileged to realize that right now.
Jonathan Lintner: I was just wondering if you knew or what you knew about where he got his name and maybe what that means.
Mike de Kock: That’s a difficult question. I’d be fluent in Arabic if I knew what all the horses’ or trainers’ names meant. To be honest with you, I’m not a hundred percent sure, but —I’m actually not going to hazard a guess, to be honest with you.
Jim Mulvihill: Sorry, it’s Jim Mulvihill here. I was just going to jump in. Pat Cummings told me this morning that this name means “elated.”
John Pricci: I was wondering if you had a chance to look at any of the tapes, if you have any idea how you assess the competition thus far?
Mike de Kock: I have, fortunately, watched a few of the trials, and I have also been chatting to Mr. Zayat on just racing matters unrelated to the Derby, and he told me in no uncertain terms that I’m in trouble when it comes to American Pharoah, which I think is a very well named horse, mind you, considering the ownership. Yes, I am very impressed by what I see, and obviously, as I said earlier on, I probably picked one of the worst years to try and come to the Derby from another country, but there’s some very serious horses, there’s not only American Pharoah, there’s some proper horses there, so, you know, a healthy respect for them, there’s no doubt.
John Pricci: Did you see anything from American Pharoah that gives you any hope that perhaps 10 furlongs might be a little bit beyond him?
Mike de Kock: The thing that impressed me about American Pharoah is the last time he set off with speed and accelerated fast, and that any opposition wouldn’t have enjoyed seeing, but I’m sure the Zayat camp would have been very impressed by, and I’m sure Bob, as well. He doesn’t seem to have any flaws at all, so I really think whoever beats him will be the winner.
John Pricci: One final one for me. You talked about your strategy and the fact that your horse can kick off fast fractions. Will you sit down, you know, the Derby, with your rider and look at some tape and work out some strategy, or would you leave that up to the rider altogether?
Mike de Kock: Not completely. I mean, Christophe is a hell of a nice bloke to work with, a very intelligent man and an extremely good jockey. We do like to analyze things. He would have himself looked at many tapes and studied the field. I believe he would have a game plan in his mind. I don’t like to interfere too much with jockeys, because I don’t want to hold them to any tactics. I really believe if one employs a jockey—you know, you could sit down and you could have a game plan, but there’s no race that’s ever run on paper, so you have to really have the faith in your men, and if the game plan changes in the first 400 meters of the race, well so be it, and one needs to just accept that. You know, that’s just the way I feel about jockeys. The reason why I’ve got Christophe Soumillon riding the horse is because I trust the man, I think he’s a very good jockey, and I’m going to live by the decision he makes.
Nicolle Neulist: I have one question and it goes back to more the beginning of Mubtaahij’s career. He ran his first two races on turf, was off the board, and then went to Dubai and started really succeeding on the dirt. Was dirt the long-term plan to begin with or was that a switch in tactics? Was he originally going to be (inaudible) switch from turf to dirt?
Mike de Kock: I wish I could tell you that it was a calculated decision, but it wasn’t. It nearly never happened. In fact, we were quite disappointed with his first two starts in England. He was shining, as I said, but at home. But, I think he was a kind of horse that was very immature and probably just wanted a little bit of time. In fact, there was a great debate amongst us whether to take him to Dubai or not. We almost left him in England just to do the winter there, and then I thought, well, you know, what the hell, let’s get him to Dubai, get a bit of sun on his back and see what he does, and when he got to Dubai, he just seemed to mature and enjoy himself, so we thought, well, you know, let’s have a crack at the Maiden, and he goes and wins that and just keeps improving. I can tell you now categorically it was never a calculated thing, it probably happened by chance, and I suppose we’ll just accept the result as it is.
Kellie Reilly: Thank you so much, and Mr. de Kock, I just wanted to thank you so much for your terrific website and all the work that your team does to just keep all the information on there. It’s just a tremendous resource for anyone trying to follow your stable, so thank you for that.
Mike de Kock: Thank you.
Kellie Reilly: I just wanted to ask about Mubtaahij’s history. You said that he has been prone to having respiratory infections in the past and that’s why he’s been stabled outside in Dubai, for the fresh air.
Mike de Kock: Yes.
Kellie Reilly: Is that a potential concern going forward in a different stabling environment here, or is that perhaps more of a babyish issue that he has since matured out of?
Mike de Kock: Yes, it’s a very good question. Yes, he was very prone to it. He has been fine of late. He could have grown out of it, but one can never be sure, but we always stabled him outdoors. Thankfully, he has gone pretty well with the travelling and where he is at the moment and there’s been no sign of it, but it was very much a concern early in his career, as a lot of young horses do have. I would like to believe he could have grown out of it and that he’s got a lot stronger, a lot tougher, and hopefully his immune system has progressed accordingly.
Kellie Reilly: You also described him as being a little bit like Rocky, in terms of his fighting attitude and his spirit. I just wanted to know if you’d like to expand a little bit on that.
Mike de Kock: Yes. He’s got a very good mind and he’s got a very competitive spirit. He’s not a horse that ever lays down. If you worked him in company, which I don’t do often, funny enough, because he’s actually that competitive, he’s a very competitive horse, he wants to win, he’s got a competitive spirit.
Tim Sullivan: First of all, I have two questions. One, I wonder if you could clarify how old you actually are.
Mike de Kock: Fifty-one.
Tim Sullivan: All right.
Mike de Kock: There’s not much in it.
Tim Sullivan: Oh, we just want to get these things right. The second thing is you talked about the Derby being a dream and I wonder how close you have come previously and how often it enters into your thinking, that you might have a horse that is capable or worthy of that race?
Mike de Kock: You know, the thing is being based in the Southern Hemisphere and one is always purchasing Southern Hemisphere horses. I’ve won the Derby five other times than Mubtaahij with Southern Hemisphere horses, where in Dubai you get an allowance, or the Northern Hemisphere horses get an allowance. So, it’s never really been on the radar, although it’s always been in my thinking. Then, with our movement restrictions out of South Africa, our strategy needed to change, in that we needed to start buying Northern Hemisphere horses, and I think this is when the sort of the psyche was changed, in that one thought, well, hang on a second, if this can win running in Dubai, maybe we need to be looking at possibly an Epsom Derby or a Kentucky Derby. I mean, let’s face it, they’re the two most famous Derbies in the world. So, once our buying strategy changed—and basically that was forced on by the protocol with the export out of South Africa—one started to think about it. But, you know, as far as I can remember, in my mind, Kentucky was always the race one stayed up late at night to watch and always was in awe of what took place there.
Tom Pedulla: What you thought of this morning’s work and what is planned for the horse as far as another work, you know, distance, and when that might be, and also when you and the horse will get to Churchill?
Mike de Kock: This morning’s work was, quite frankly, just an easy piece, just let him stretch his legs and just have a little bit of a blowout, so I’m more than happy wit