March 26, 2019

Florida Derby and Dubai World Cup Preview

Guests

  • Garrett O’Rourke, Juddmonte Farms, Hidden Scroll
  • Jack Wolf, Starlight Racing, Audible
  • Shug McGaughey, trainer, Code of Honor

Full transcript (Note: Transcript has not been edited):

CONFERNCE CALL PARTICIPANTS

Garrett O’Rourke

 

Jack Wolf

 

Shug McGaughey

 

 

P R E S E N T A T I O N

 

 

Operator:

Good day ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the NTRA Road to the Triple Crown conference call. At this time, all participants are in a listen-only mode. Following the presentation, we will conduct a question-and-answer session. At that time, participants are asked to press star one to register for a question. As a reminder, this conference is being recorded. It is now my pleasure to introduce your host, Mr. Jim Mulvihill. Please go ahead sir.

Jim Mulvihill:

 

Alright, thank you Shannon, and thanks everybody for joining us today. It is Jim Mulvihill on the line. I am just delighted to be filling in today for my friend, Alicia Hughes. You may know Alicia is in Dubai right now. She is assisting the Dubai Racing Club Media Department with notes and videos and such, and I will give them a quick plug and let you know that if you are not receiving that news from Dubai and you want to be on those lists, just send an email to media@dubairacingclub.com and Michael Adolphson will hook you up with all the notes and video you could ever need.

We are going to talk more about the Dubai World Cup later on, we have got Jack Wolf coming on, but as usual in the springtime, we are here to talk primarily about the Road to the Triple Crown. This Saturday, we have got two of the major 170-point Kentucky Derby Championship series preps – the UAE Derby on the Dubai World Cup undercard and the Florida Derby, which we all know reliably produces one of the top choices in the Kentucky Derby each year. Today, we are very fortunate we have got three true gentlemen of the turf joining us to talk about their derby prospects. Jack will be on the talk about Audible in the Dubai World Cup of course, but we will also talk about his Sunland Derby winner from Sunday, Cutting Humor, and after that, we will have Shug McGaughey on to give some impressions of his Florida Derby runner, the Fountain of Youth winner Code of Honor. But first, we are thrilled to be joined by Juddmonte Farms Racing Manager, Garrett O’Rourke. Prince Khalid has two strong Kentucky Derby contenders this year, between the Tampa Bay Derby winner Tacitus and the lightly raced Florida Derby hopeful, Hidden Scroll. Juddmonte has twice finished second at the Kentucky Derby and they went in with high hopes last year with Hofburg, but came in seventh with a very troubled trip, if you remember. Garrett, it’s Jim Mulvihill in Louisville, thanks for joining us.

Garrett O’Rourke:

 

My pleasure Jim.

 

Jim Mulvihill:

 

I want to ask about Hidden Scroll’s last race. He got caught in a speed duel in the Fountain of Youth, and you know, Joel Rosario took a lot of heat for that, even though a lot of us would say it is not always as easy or beneficial as people think it might be to settle a horse that really wants to go early. What did you all learn from that effort and what has been done since to maybe help this colt relax?

Garrett O’Rourke:

Well, you know, it was the horse’s second ever start and, you know, whether the horse can or can’t lay back to the base, personally I think having been around the horse, and saw live, he is actually a real character, not a hard-pulling type horse, but he does have natural speed so, you know, I think Joel, just having ridden him the first time, probably thought nothing can live with his horse. Well, I think we found out last weekend after the Hutcheson, you know, a less caliber horse, he was trying to outrun early, but you know, that is all put behind now and we will move on from it. And the works that he has had since then, Bill has been working on trying to teach him to sit behind horses which he, you know, from what I have seen of them on XP TV, the horse has no problem whatsoever sitting behind horses. Now, he doesn’t necessarily have to do that, I think he has got the speed to go upfront, but I think it just shows that he definitely won’t be a one-dimensional type horse, and I think that gives a jockey just a little bit more knowledge going into a race and more options obviously while in the race and, you know, hopefully that will give a lot of confidence to Javier going on Saturday and in the future as well, you know. But I think one thing that we are not doubting is the horse’s talent, you know, what he showed on day one is what we are seeing in the mornings as well and whether it is going long or whatever it is going to be, I think we will find out where the horse suits best along the road, but I think without a doubt, we are pretty confident that the horse has an awful lot of talent.

 

Jim Mulvihill:

 

Excellent. Well, that pretty much covers all of it, except I hope you don’t mind me asking, is Joel going to be named to ride him tomorrow?

 

Garrett O’Rourke:

 

No, Javier Castellano is riding him.

 

Jim Mulvihill:

 

Okay.

 

Garrett O’Rourke:

 

And Joel has – obviously, he has got the champion two-year-old as well and we were going to have to be faced with a choice at some stage or other if we do make it forward and, you know, you have got someone like Javier available early in the game and willing to take the ride and, you know, and I doubt it was just – Bill thought it was the time to go and make the move and make it easy and allow the probability of having the same jockey for the prep and the big day if we were so lucky to be able to move on after Saturday.

 

Jim Mulvihill:

 

Yeah, yeah, that all makes perfect sense. Now, before I let the media ask some questions, we will also jump ahead to next weekend and Tacitus pointing to the Wood Memorial, what did you think of his Tampa Bay Derby and what are your thoughts on this product of Tapit and Close Hatches right now?

 

Garrett O’Rourke:

 

Well, obviously, you know, when these horses were born and Hidden Scroll is a very good-looking horse, but he didn’t have the pedigree that Tacitus has, and, you know, the excitement that surrounds a pedigree like that, all of this leads you to dreaming about the derby. He is a big long striding horse and I think he worked well in the morning without his being a well speed horse and he pleasantly surprised first time outshowing some speed and talent, won second timeout and then obviously Bill had the confidence to go to Tampa, which I think, you know, that deserves a lot of credit as well because you are coming off a long layoff and you have a horse that probably takes a little bit of training and has every right to improve going forward, but he was adamant he was going there and he was right. I think he has a horse that we know will need a pace set up, but you know, invariably you are more likely to get those pace setups in big races than you are in allowance races and, you know, I mean there is more on the line, so people put in the jockeys go for the gold earlier in those big races and I think that will hopefully benefit him in Wood Memorial and hopefully down the line as well. And I think it’s – you know, he is a horse that I think will be doing his best work at the finish and, obviously, Hidden Scroll is well able to lay up in the pace. I just hope we don’t ever get to a scenario where one is going backwards and one is going forward and neither of them is getting there, but I think it is a nice situation to feel that we are in, you know, and covering the bases.

 

Jim Mulvihill:

 

Yeah. Aside from just needing a setup, how would you describe Tacitus’ way of running because watching the Tampa Bay Derby, it was like he was just going along and going along and it never really looked like – it almost didn’t look like he was in contention until suddenly he was right at the front. I mean he never – he just kept going and going. How do you describe his way of moving?

 

Garrett O’Rourke:

 

Well, you know, he is inbred to Unbridled, and I remember when I came over to The States at first and that was one of the first years I was here and watching Unbridled; and even at derby time, Unbridled was long, thin neck and really narrow in front and he didn’t look like he was fully developed, and you would have looked at him going out to the tracks and say, yeah, this fellow is not ready and then he took off at a gallop and he was the most beautiful moving horse. And this fellow is the same as the two-year-old last year when we started training him and I thought, well, he is going to take a long time to get going, but then the very minute he is – break from a jog into a canter, it just came so naturally to him. And I think that big long stride of his is what he just needs to use to his advantage. I don’t think he is like a Cadillac. I don’t think he necessarily needs to be accelerating and he definitely doesn’t need to be stopped in a race and that it might take him a while to get it going again, but if he gets plain sailing like he did in Tampa – well, as he proved that, he can go close to breaking track records.

Jim Mulvihill:

 

Yeah.

 

Garrett O’Rourke:

 

And, you know, and I think that was what Unbridled had as well, you know. So, it is, – and you know, I do think as he gets older and stronger, you know, his [inaudible] had tons of speed, you know, so I would hope that as he gets stronger, he will get faster as well, you know, but he will definitely have no trouble in my opinion getting the mile and a quarter of the derby.

 

Jim Mulvihill:

 

Very exciting. Well, with that, I want to turn it over to the media. So, we will have Shannon, the operator; check and see if there is any questions on the line.

 

Operator:

 

Thank you. Ladies and gentleman, once again, if you would like to signal for a question, please press star one at this time. Again, that is star one to signal for a question, and we will pause for just a moment. And our first question will come from Tom Jicha of South Florida Sun Sentinel.

 

Tom Jicha:

 

Yeah, Garrett, we have been seeing stories that Hidden Scroll just seems to run past Tacitus in his workouts, and Tacitus’ last workout wasn’t terrific. Is he just not a good workhorse or is it something about the track, the training center he is at now?  That is pretty much what I want to know.

 

Garrett O’Rourke:

Yeah. No, I would say that is a fair point, but I have learned over the years to take the leads of the trainer’s instincts; and you heard me say earlier that Bill was adamant that he was going to the Tampa Bay Derby with Tacitus even though Hidden Scroll had completely dusted him in a workout. But remember, they were half mile workouts or, you know, even sometimes when Bill goes five hits, they go really easy early on and then come home, you know, fast for the last three hits and, you know, Tacitus can – you know, he can clip off the same fractions all the time, but Hidden Scroll can just really kick it in a gear and drop down to, you know, he can do a 44 half, let’s say, if he wants to. I don’t think Tacitus wants to do anything much below a 47 half, but I don’t think he will tire then, you know. So, I think to be judging him by half mile or five hit workouts is not seeing him at where he will excel, which is, you know, going two turns and then the gallop, so watching his gallop outs, Bill was always impressed on those occasions. Even when Hidden Scroll could burst away from him at the head of the stretch, Tacitus was always catching up again and then when they would gallop out, Tacitus is the one that is galloping out and front and galloping on down the backside. So, I think this scenario will benefit Tacitus and we don’t expect him ever to be up there with the pace early, but you know, he has got his style of running and that is going to be running less.

 

Tom Jicha:

 

And how much of a concern is that Hidden Scroll has zero derby points, so he really – it would take a second at least to get him into the derby?

 

Garrett O’Rourke:

 

It is a concern if we were putting all of our chips on the derby alone, but given that the horse is inexperienced, you know, we have said from the start and Bill has said as well that look, if this doesn’t work this weekend, we can regroup with this horse and he is such a talent that I think there will be big races, maybe we could skip to the Preakness or maybe we could start thinking about races later in the year, but there is no point trying to push to like we wouldn’t run on Saturday and come back in another prep to try and you know, squeeze something to get to the derby. It wouldn’t be the right thing to do and the hope is that he shows his talent on Saturday and obviously, he has to finish in the one-two and we will move on from there. But I can say if that doesn’t happen, you know, I think if it doesn’t happen outside of just really, really bad luck, it is probably a sign that the horse maybe isn’t ready for a step forward like that and I think we will listen to that step, or listen to that sign should it present, okay?

 

Tom Jicha:

Thank you very much. Okay, thank you very much.

 

Garrett O’Rourke:

 

You are welcome.

 

Operator:

 

Once again, that is star one to signal for a question. Our next question will come from Danny Brewer of horseracingscoop.com.

 

Danny Brewer:

 

Mr. O’Rourke, how are you?

 

Garrett O’Rourke:

 

I am very well, thank you Danny.

 

Danny Brewer:

 

When you look at the résumé for Hidden Scroll, his experience or lack of, is that a concern?  You know, we used to think that derby horses needed so many races before. I guess all that has just been thrown out the window now. So, are you concerned about his lack of experience at all?

 

Garrett O’Rourke:

 

The only thing I would disagree with there is that it has been thrown out the window. By no means do I think it is thrown out the window. I just think we have had a very unusual occurrence last year, and Justify had been able to pull that off and I think Supreme Talent can always overcome, especially if you are a front runner and stay out of trouble. Now, if you are going to have a bad experience on Kentucky Derby day, I think there are two things that can get to a horse, is, number one, all the hustle and bustle if the horse mentally isn’t able for it, that can boil over. And Justify didn’t boil over last year. And number two, you can get into trouble in the 20-horse field and not know how to handle it and just get bounced around, and an experienced horse might take those bouncers and just not be bothered and then go on and run his race, but an inexperienced horse obviously is going to get shuffled back and not recover. I think the beauty of Hidden Scroll hopefully is that he has got the natural speed to be closer to the front than the back by the time they hit the first turn and similar to what Justify had, and I think that is the type of horse that can overcome the inexperience, but he is still, you know, all the crowd factor is still a very big hurdle as well. So, I don’t think it is just a new phenomenon that we were able to overcome, I think it is just a very, very special horse that did it last year.

 

Danny Brewer:

 

There are rules, but they are accepting of every rule, I guess that is another word, a good way of putting it, correct?

 

Garrett O’Rourke:

Exactly, exactly, very well said and I think the exceptions to the rule have to have certain characteristics and styles of running, and I think the two that I mentioned I think are probably the most important and I think we definitely have the speed to be able to keep ourselves out of trouble. Obviously, the temperament I think is often something that you don’t realize until the week of or the day of and you just have to get over there and find out, but, you know, going back years ago, it was Thunder Gulch who was here and we brought Eltish over from England to run in the race and he was in magnificent condition, looked great, did fine all week long, but he arrived into the paddock in front of that crowd and then he just washed out and started to scream and totter and by the time he went out on to the track, he was completely washed out and his race was run. So, I think that illustrates what can go wrong, and I am just glad that Hidden Scroll is in the best of hands of someone like Bill who will know all the tricks to make sure that he is properly schooled and hopefully learn to overcome all of that.

And the other thing is he actually trained in Churchill last year as well. A lot of people don’t realize that when he got injured last year and caught himself, he was actually training at Churchill from midsummer until whatever that was, maybe October. So, at least the horse has plenty of experience around Churchill Downs as well.

 

Danny Brewer:

 

You mentioned Unbridled being in his bloodlines, obviously, this guy, he has got it from top to bottom, you feel like as far as his leg is concerned?

 

Garrett O’Rourke:

 

Yes, I mean they both have Unbridled in their bloodlines, Tacitus is inbred to Unbridled and obviously, Hidden Scroll is out of an Empire Maker mare by Unbridled and they both actually do bear resemblance physically to Unbridled. They are both big horses with plenty of leg, and they both have beautiful long strides, just like Unbridled as well, and that is what Unbridled I think passes on through Unbridled Song and Empire Maker and all those horses. You know, they all have beautiful strides, so I think that is, you know, the type of classic horse that he is definitely influencing in the breed at the moment.

 

Danny Brewer:

 

I certainly do appreciate your time and I wish you the best of luck.

 

Garrett O’Rourke:

 

Thank you very much.

 

Operator:

 

And our next question will come from David Grening of Daily Racing Form.

 

David Grening:

 

Garrett, you said that Bill was adamant about going to the Tampa Derby. Was that since he actually broke his maiden in November, that, you know, when we were going to start in March, or were there hopes that might have gotten going a little earlier than that so maybe he could get a little more experience?

 

Garrett O’Rourke:

 

No, I think Bill was very, very clear this time around on how he wanted to get there and, you know, he got him down to Florida, gave him a little bit of time to get over a little shin and stuff like that; but he often does that with this three-year-olds when he gets to Payson Park and then the plan was to start picking it up in January with a view to having him ready for one of those races. Now, obviously, he got closer to the time before he realized he was fit enough to aim for that, but once he was within, I would say, three to four weeks of the race, I think he had his sights set on the Tampa Bay Derby and I think even after some of the works, I think, Bill understood the type of horse that he is and he was really excited; he was seeing the gallop out and also the forward movement in the horse because I was down in Payson Park in December and I saw him then and, you know, he was just walking I think at that time. And I just thought he was a little bit gangly at that time. I went back down a couple of weeks before – or about a week and a half, it was the week of the Fountain of Youth and so on and, boy, I had seen a big difference in the horse in that he was really starting to fill out and go in the right direction. So, I would say that what I was seeing was what Bill was experiencing in the morning as well, was that the horse that was in a nice upward incline and starting to do all of the things that you want to see for progress into the classic time of year, and so I think that is probably what gave Bill the confidence to definitely go there.

 

David Grening:

 

And is the choice of the Wood Memorial pretty much based on the fact that he won that accolade last year as opposed to say the Bluegrass?

 

Garrett O’Rourke:

 

Yeah, correct. We had discussed both races, but Bill has complete control over what way to get there. We all know what the ultimate goal would be with these horses, you know, we want to ultimately, if possible, get to the derby and at least the classics and big races even later in the year and make stallion prospects out of them, but, you know, the choice of the Wood Memorial, he having raced there last year as he said, that all would seem to be within Bill’s comfort zone, and so that is the way it will go.

 

David Grening:

 

And one more if I may, just how gratifying is it for, you know, Close Hatches to throw her first foal being a horse that seems to be very talented and might get you to the big show?

 

Garrett O’Rourke:

Well, I think that is absolutely fabulous for the people here on the farm, and I think anyone that is really interbreeding, which Prince Khalid obviously is ultimately it[?], that is like watching your own kids, you know. And in her case, you know, she was one of the most beautiful young foals we have had that went on to be a beautiful yearling that went down to be an absolutely brilliant three-year-old and champion four-year-old. So, now, first foal comes along and he is showing this type of talent and it is just tremendously exciting not just for Tacitus but for the lovely foal that she has coming along after her. She is a nice two-year-old and she is a nice yearling and she is a lovely curling[?] cold[?] foal on the ground as well, you know, so, yeah, that’s exceptionally exciting.

 

David Grening:

 

Thank you and good luck.

 

Garrett O’Rourke:

 

Thank you, yeah.

 

Operator:

 

And it appears we have no further questions at this time.

 

Jim Mulvihill:

 

Alright, Garrett, thanks so much for all this information and for taking a lot of time with us today. We really appreciate it.

 

Garrett O’Rourke:

 

Delighted Jim. Take care.

 

Jim Mulvihill:

 

Very good. Good luck on Saturday. Garrett O’Rourke.

 

Garrett O’Rourke:

 

Thank you.

 

Jim Mulvihill:

 

Manager of Juddmonte Farms and got two great-looking derby prospects that we covered in depth here today. Just to correct the record real quick, Hidden Scroll does have five points on the road to the Kentucky Derby leader board. Now, we are going to jump over to Dubai where the world’s richest race, the $12 million Dubai World Cup is set for Saturday, and we are going to talk about that race of course, but our next guest is also well versed in the Florida Derby, which he has won twice, with Audible last year and Harlan’s Holliday in 2002. And he also knows the Kentucky Derby of course, having also won that last year, is manager of the Starlight Racing Partnerships that co-own Justify. Starlight is hoping that Audible can rebound from a Pegasus fifth in the Dubai World Cup and they are also looking forward to another Kentucky Derby with Cutting Humor, who set a track record while winning the Sunland Derby on Sunday. Jack Wolf, it is Jim Mulvihill checking in, how are you doing?

 

Jack Wolf:

 

Hi Jim, how is it going?

 

Jim Mulvihill:

 

Oh, it is going great. Congratulations on the Sunland Derby and thanks for taking some time with us, I know it is getting late in the evening over there. I hope we haven’t pulled you away from dinner or anything like that.

 

Jack Wolf:

 

No, the timing is perfect. We got in probably, yeah. Go ahead Jim.

 

Jim Mulvihill:

 

Alright, yeah, I think there is a little bit of a delay, but we will struggle through it. Let’s start with Audible. You know, when I look at the Pegasus Field, the top half of it was very strong, it looked like a Breeder’s Cup classic type of race, and you all just missed getting fourth money in there. So, just tell us where you believe Audible stacks up now as an order horse with the top order horses on dirt, both in the US and as we will see on Saturday, in the world?

 

Jack Wolf:

 

Well, that’s a good question. The time-off that we had given Audible, we felt that the timing would be perfect to running back in the Harlan’s Holliday and then have six weeks into the Pegasus. Each one of these horses is difficult to get a handle on in the race and he also can prove you in the mornings, but he never had been training according to Todd better going into those two races. And I don’t know, if you want to use an excuse, I guess you can use the off class, you know, lost [inaudible] and the Harlan’s Holliday and then, you know, in the Pegasus, you know, he had a little run at the end, I think he took the worst part of the track and – but even in spite of that, his numbers, his ride numbers are right there with Lawrence, who said he will be going to Dubai and then hopefully we can at least draw a line through the Pegasus and hopefully he shows up. And hopefully, we will get him going to track.

 

Jim Mulvihill:

 

Well, and since he had so much time-off, basically the whole second half of last year, well, he did start at the end of the year, but he got basically six months off, does that give you hope that, you know, reaching that third race in the form cycle that there is still some room to improve there and maybe not getting the best conditions to run in his first two races that we just still haven’t seen what his best race will be as a four-year-old?

 

Jack Wolf:

 

Yeah. I hope you are right Jim and it is what we are banking on, I mean if you look at three or four of these other horses in here, it looks like we can be competitive with who is going to be the favorite. Hopefully, this will be a start to a nice round of records for the horse. He really is a durable, hard working horse. So, hopefully, we have some upside this year.

Jim Mulvihill:

 

Excellent. Now, before we open it up to questions from everybody, let me ask about Cutting Humor real quick. Set a track record on Sunday, but that was six weeks out from the first Saturday in May. Do you have any thoughts on whether he might get another racing or does it make more sense, my guess is that the typical Todd moves these days would be to train up to the Kentucky Derby, what do you think?

 

Jack Wolf:

 

Well, the first thing, in talking to Todd this morning, or yesterday morning, where we are now, the horse came out of the race in good order. He will be shipping back to Florida on Wednesday. It would be my guess, Todd is so good with these layoffs that he would not be looking for another way. And Todd and I have worked together for a number of years, 18, 19 years now and he won’t lay a horse in the derby if the horse isn’t training well and doing well. So, even though we have the points, it looks like enough points, I am not sure, it will be up to Todd to see how the horse is doing and like I agree with you Jim, I think that we will see the horse run between now and the derby, if he runs in the derby, if he [inaudible] off the time off.

 

Jim Mulvihill:

 

Yeah, it makes sense to me. Well, let me turn it over to the media for more questions on Audible or Cutting Humor or anything else on Starlight Racing.

 

Operator:

 

Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, once again, if you would like to signal for a question, please do so by pressing star one on your telephone keypad.